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Old 01-23-2003, 05:47 AM
#16

No i really don't mind if they discuss it in this topic. I like hearing things from different peoples views, and topics like this really interest me, so argue away

Matt, I'm not sure when / if it will be out on DVD. I wouldn't mind watching it again though and seeing some of Moores other docs. Apparently some of the shit is set up, but at the end of the day he still makes a valid and legit point
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Old 01-23-2003, 05:55 AM
#17

Quote:
Originally posted by Mattwastaken
It really doesn't, you two are oblivious to how trivial you both sound. But blah, you should try opening a new thread next time.
If i have an oppinion, i feel i need to state it. of course it's better to start a new topic about it, i just didn't think it would be a discussion this long.

this isn't an argument, but more a discussion i think. i'll let anyone believe whatever they want, but i also have to try to make them see the downside to what they think is great as well. assuming there is one of course
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Old 01-23-2003, 09:31 AM
#18

Quote:
Originally posted by Mattwastaken
It really doesn't, you two are oblivious to how trivial you both sound. But blah, you should try opening a new thread next time.
No... thatz how threads go... they start as one topic and go 2 another like that all the time. Its no big deal.
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Old 01-23-2003, 11:58 AM
#19

I'm tired of USA's way to look at the rest of the world. They only see themselves, and if anything happends to USA, everyone have to grief. 11th of sep, we held a quiet minute for USA, when will someone come and say "Let's pray for the people in afganistan!"?
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Old 01-23-2003, 05:33 PM
#20

i don't even know what to say to that except fer finally, some one made a perfectly fit point.. v i totally agree with u to an extent.. but tha ppl in afgan, but some of them get what they get... i know it soundz fuckt up- i don't like war... but ppl do things an DO DESERVE their reprecutions..(sp?)
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Old 01-23-2003, 05:37 PM
#21

fyi, i don't agree with christianity. i'm not any religion, so i don't see how that disgusts you.

and you're right, i don't know much about the middle east. i apologize if i said something false.

and i didn't say, (or didn't mean to if i did) that we had a right to kill innocent people. and the only reason we are using military force is revenge. and if bush is only looking out for americans he's doing a good job..that's what he's supposed to do.

and i was using women as an example, cause you said you had more respect for them. i know it's their religion that tells them to do what they do, and maybe it's because i'm just a dumb american that i think that's wrong. doesn't mean i won't be friends with muslims, i just can't respect that type of treatment.

i also said that my country's past wasn't perfect. slavery was wrong. it lasted a long time, it was bad. but look how long serfs lasted in russia, and i never see somone say "those damn russians, serfs built that country" and they were treated badly as well. or in france/england with high nobility and and poor people in poverty. those things were wrong, but people just look at them as history, not right or wrong. slavery is history. it was wrong, it's no longer done, thank god..and move on. get a new insult to americans, seriously.

and, again, maybe it's just my dumb american mind, but i don't think we are killing arabs cause we don't understand them. if you say for oil, sure i believe you. for revenge, absolutely. but because we don't understand their religion? it's not that complex of a religion.

i think you need to face that you obviously hate americans. you have some sort of personal dislike of america, that is a little childish. i don't hate people from afghanistan, or the middle east. i don't even hate bin laden. i think what he did was wrong, and because i really don't know enough about it i'm on the fence about this war we are gonna have. so this image you have of americans being sheep that follow the president is pretty wrong. but i think the ones that do just want some closure from an experiance that sucked for us.
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Old 01-23-2003, 07:01 PM
#22

Hmm... I gotta reply to your post bit by bit to not get rambling on again.

Quote:
Originally posted by Amanda
and i didn't say, (or didn't mean to if i did) that we had a right to kill innocent people. and the only reason we are using military force is revenge. and if bush is only looking out for americans he's doing a good job..that's what he's supposed to do.
That man has the right to start world wars to the left and right, and the UN doesn't even have the right to say anything about it. I don't agree on that. He has a responsibility to the world in whole. If he gets your country into war, the whole world gets affected. Even if my government of hundreds of people agreed that we wanted war with Norway or something, we couldn't. We would be forced to stop our plans by the entire UN.

What good is revenge by the way? It's simply of no use.

Quote:
i also said that my country's past wasn't perfect. slavery was wrong. it lasted a long time, it was bad. but look how long serfs lasted in russia, and i never see somone say "those damn russians, serfs built that country" and they were treated badly as well. or in france/england with high nobility and and poor people in poverty. those things were wrong, but people just look at them as history, not right or wrong. slavery is history. it was wrong, it's no longer done, thank god..and move on. get a new insult to americans, seriously.
I also truly hate the dictatorship of Russia, as well as i hate the ones in several asian countries (and in Iraq of course). Sweden also had a very high nobility (mostly run by the christian church, like the u.k.) who only used the working class for their own benefit. But in this case I'm talking to an american citizen who thinks it's alright to use "revenge" as a reason to bomb an entire country to pieces. I don't see why i should pull in Russia in the thing. You made comments of the bad things in Afghanistan. It's just not compareable. I've studied Technical Humanity and Technical Psychology. I know the reason why those countries isn't as developed as the westworld is. There are good reasons, and like you had slavery and such 500 years ago, their religion descriminates women now. In 500 years they will be as developed as the US is now, if not more. Both physically and psychologically.

Quote:
and, again, maybe it's just my dumb american mind, but i don't think we are killing arabs cause we don't understand them. if you say for oil, sure i believe you. for revenge, absolutely. but because we don't understand their religion? it's not that complex of a religion.
Exactly. The american christianity is way more complex and contradictive. Why kill people for oil? Isn't USA a rich country as it is? I'll sure get mad when they invade Norway and take their oil, 'cause I will live in a fucking atomwinter.

Quote:
i think you need to face that you obviously hate americans. you have some sort of personal dislike of america, that is a little childish. i don't hate people from afghanistan, or the middle east. i don't even hate bin laden. i think what he did was wrong, and because i really don't know enough about it i'm on the fence about this war we are gonna have. so this image you have of americans being sheep that follow the president is pretty wrong. but i think the ones that do just want some closure from an experiance that sucked for us.
I don't hate americans, but i think their way of handling their problems is the worst example in the world right now. It's almost compareable to what Hitler tried to do with germany. (and don't give me the whole "don't compare bush to nazi-hitler"-speech, because i see hitler as a very skilled speaker and strategist. He got what he wanted and did it great. The fact that he was a sick nazi-fuck doesn't have anything to do with it.) The equality is that they both have the urge to take over the world. I want to see an american president who isn't so fucking patriotic that he looses all sense of reality when someone threatens his beloved USA.

Other than that, i agree with you. You may not be a christian, but your country is lead in a christian manner, which makes my right to complain about the way religion is affecting your lead really obvious.
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Old 01-23-2003, 08:57 PM
#23

Quote:
Originally posted by Amanda


creep, wasn't it pretty ignorant of you to say what you just said? who the fuck are you to say someone's religion is dumb? i mean, seriously, that's not your business.
Why are religious beliefs off-limits to diss, yet all other beliefs are okay to attack? Religious beliefs are no different from political beliefs or any other kind of beliefs.
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Old 01-23-2003, 09:00 PM
#24

Quote:
Originally posted by Creep

can you truly say that you don't know anyone that really believes that george bush is the man that's gonna save the world from "savages" and "commies"?

I don't believe you hate people from the arab world, but they have more reasons to fly planes into your buildings killing thousands of people than you have bombing them back just to find the one man guilty of that crime, killing 10 times more innocent people while you're at it. It's been one year and a half, and all your country has succeded with is killing a bunch of people as revenge. That's just stupid.
I agree.
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Old 01-23-2003, 09:08 PM
#25

Quote:
Originally posted by Amanda


i think you need to face that you obviously hate americans. you have some sort of personal dislike of america, that is a little childish.
I have to say, I've read everything Creep said in this thread and I agree with all of it. That doesn't mean I 'obviously hate Americans'.

Although I do have to disagree with the Bush/Hitler analogy a bit, I mean they are both power hungry dickheads and all, but Hitler was a genius and Bush is dumber than a piece of shit on the ground.
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Old 01-23-2003, 10:08 PM
#26

I ain't even gonna bother commenting on this...... I agree with some of amanda's points and some of creeps... I'll live it at that.
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Old 01-23-2003, 10:30 PM
#27

Quote:
Originally posted by Creep
Also, a few americans in an interview agreed that Sweden was the capital of Yurup. (i saw it myself). It's sad
Thats nothing, I met a couple of Americans on holiday who didnt know where Toronto was, they thought it was in damn Iowa! Now thats some funny shit!

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Old 01-24-2003, 02:52 AM
#28

Well Tia, I did say that both want power. It's natural to want that. However, Hitler achieved it by smart moves, and Bush achieves it by just doing everything he can. Bombing other countries, controlling things he has no buisness to control etc.

I think we're saying the same thing but in different ways. I respect Hitler in a way, even though i hate his oppinions on several things, he truly was a guy that came from nowhere, and just because he could speak in a way that made people listen got him to the top. He got poor Germany, with over half of the people unemployed, and made it one of the richest and most powerful nations in the world.

I wish Bill Clinton was the president the 9th of September 2001. I respected him and liked him as a person. He was a politician, but i think Bush is just in the game to become a president just to live up to his fathers expectations.
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Old 01-24-2003, 03:41 AM
#29

Quote:
Originally posted by Creep
Also, the afghanistan government doesn't enslave women, it's their religion that tells them that women should have the limits they have. They are muslims, but the females you see on TV, that's covered even her face with a net, that's a taliban. The Afghanistan government doesn't approve of the talibans either because they are an extremist group that took Islam and made it an extreme way of thinking, like communism or nazism. One of my best friends is muslim, and I see nothing wrong with that religion except that it's wierd for us (and for the girl i know, who has to wear a veil (spelling?) whenever she goes out when she's in Iran) is the fact that women can get arrested for hanging out in the mall with guys that's not their brother or cousin or something. But that's just the laws of that country.
Are you kidding me with all of this? A woman with her face covered is a taliban? The Taliban was an insanely radical group of men enslaving, torturing, and murdering citizens (men AND women) for things like showing their ankles or making eye contact with members of the opposite sex outside of their family. The Taliban was doing horrible things to the citizens for years- they lived and died in fear. And the saddest part is that they were unable to choose the religion or lifestyle for themselves- they weren't allowed to learn to READ and they had no access to the outside world whatsoever. Anyone who disagreed with them was publicly murdered.
The reasons the US removed the Taliban from power might have been fucked up, but it is my opinion that it should have been done a LONG time ago. Any country in the world who gave a rat's ass about human rights should have stepped in (and Amnesty International and NOW tried to raise awareness of the problem for years) years before 9/11 or whatever.
You can say that Afghanistan was none of the our business, but it was. It was our business, and your business, and the business of everyone else worldwide. Human rights is something we all need to be concerned about.
And how can you say 'that's just the laws of their country', and in the next paragraph talk about how slavery laws were wrong? They WERE wrong, that's the entire point. As are laws that oppress women now.
And you said it's not the government oppressing women, it's their religion. Although they base their laws on religion, the government MAKES the laws, and yes they are oppressing women, and other racial groups, and other religious groups...
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Old 01-24-2003, 04:41 PM
#30

tia, i don't think anyone was attacking anyone's political views here. but when creep thought i was christian that my religion "disgusted him", yet he respects islam, inspite of the way the religion treats women. i think that's wrong. political views are meant to be discussed.

now, don't get me wrong, a rational discussion of pretty much anything is okay, but as always i think religion deserves a certain amount of respect. the only thing that bothers me about religions is when people try and force it on other people (wich christians do a lot). at them time i think the person should keep it to themselves, but saying that someone's religion is disgusting is wrong, imo. i disagree with most all aspects mof religion, that doesn't mean i think they are disgusting.
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